The Supervision Sessions
Listen in to three Professional Supervisors as they examine what supervision is.
Based in Aotearoa, New Zealand, often in a Pastoral Supervision context, they unpack the myths, the common questions about what supervision is, and chew the fat about what being in supervision is all about.
Be a fly on the wall and get the inside insight into Supervision. Released weekly.
The Supervision Sessions
I'm too busy for Supervision
Are you in supervision? Do you even know what it is? In The Supervision Sessions, three professional supervisors explore what supervision is, bust some myths, ask some commonly used questions you will hear during a supervision session and generally have a good time together. Listen in to their conversation over the next five episodes. Podcasts released weekly.
Hi, we're Nathan Hughes, Ken Shelley and Nina Harris. In Episode 1 we explore, "what do we mean when we use the word supervision? How is it different from other ‘helping’ disciplines?". We ask "what is re-framing? Why is it so helpful?". We examine the possibly held myth: “I’m too busy for supervision”. And finally we explore, "what’s the problem with obligation?".
Extra's for experts: Which generation of gaming do you relate to? Do you know which Winnie the Pooh character represents your denomination?
Join us for The Supervision Sessions.
Special thanks to:
Spanky Moore for editing assistance
Petra Oomen for design and photos
Ryan @funknslowcuts for the music https://soundcloud.com/funknslocuts?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
and many others who were our podcast gurus, guinea pigs, and all round good sorts who supported us to get this thing up and running.
You can connect with us further at the following places:
Nina Harris - Woven Stories Supervision
Nathan Hughes - Perohuka Coaching
Ken Shelley - Pillar
This is the Supervision Sessions Podcast, where we explore what supervision is really all about. The inside insight about supervision. I'm Nathan Hughes. I am Nina Harris.
SPEAKER_02:And I am Ken Shelley. Fantastic. How has your week been, Kim? Let's start with you.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, really? Oh, that's nice. Well, I tell you what, it's an awful lot better having just eaten a scone. Or as my wife would say, a scon. Scone.
SPEAKER_00:Scon, that's right.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Nathan, for that scon. It was very delicious. Um no, I've I've had a good week, thank you very much. I um had the grandchildren around last night, which is always good fun. They were uh oysterous, noisy, wanted to watch Minecraft movies on YouTube. Interesting, isn't it? I I grew up before any of those kinds of games and things were available. The Minecraft movie kind or Minecraft video? No, you see, this is interesting. So I had none of that. The next generation beyond me and my son, he had a PlayStation and got into all of that playing games. This generation liked watching videos of other people playing the games. Now what does that tell you about society? Anyway, so we we we we endure some of these crazy JJ Mikey videos from time to time, and so yeah, but it's lovely being with them, we don't mind.
SPEAKER_00:Nice, nice. Um my week has been great. Anything is better than last week.
SPEAKER_01:It was a really bad week.
SPEAKER_00:It was. I had the flu, and so it just feels really good to be well, and everything is viewed through that lens.
SPEAKER_01:It's an awful lot better than being ill. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_00:It is, it really, really knocked me for six. So I have had a great week and I'm feeling really good, and it's really good to be here.
SPEAKER_02:Good. You, Nathan? My week has also been good. Thank you, Ken. Uh, the the kind of the highlight of my week was learning to navigate meta ads, meta being the company that runs Facebook and Instagram, and I've been trying for about a week now to get a video to play uh to promote some upcoming workshops that I'm doing. And you wouldn't believe how complex that is.
SPEAKER_01:I can believe.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, believe that not.
SPEAKER_00:So it's good that you ha feel like you've achieved it and and know what you're doing a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02:I had it, I had quite a lot of help. I so I needed to you don't want to know all the details. But but basically it's yeah, I had a lot of help and I believe, I think I'll go go go check when I when I get home today, but I believe my video is now showing around the country.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Good for you. So this is our podcast, the supervision sessions. We are all, we are friends. Yeah. We are based in Nelson and we are all supervisors.
SPEAKER_00:Now Nelson in which country, Nathan.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, Nelson in New Zealand. Yeah, good clarification, Nia. And most of our supervision clients are church leaders. So that is our context. And we feel that supervision is a much misunderstood practice.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Which is why we have decided to put on this podcast. Yep. The structure of it is gonna go something like this. In a second, we will bust a myth, we will look at an analogy, think of it like this, and we will finish with a question of the window. But first, what do you mean by supervision?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it is misunderstood, isn't it? I mean, if you say the word supervision to somebody, they n normally think of a manager who is above them looking over their work. You think of somebody looking over your shoulder, making sure you're not making mistakes. That's the kind of thing you think of. I mean, like taking your car to the mechanic, and the mechanic opens the bonnet and he looks at the engine and starts breathing through his teeth. You know, that's that's like a tutting. You know, that's people think of that as the kind of atmosphere of supervision. But that's that's not what we mean, is it? That's not what we mean. No.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's either that or they just have no framework at all or to reference it to. Um and so we're talking about professional supervision. So um it is a um a professional act, I guess, and something that is external to the um work that someone's doing. So it's not the looking over your shoulder watching what you're doing, it's someone who sits outside of maybe the organization that you work with um and is um helping you to uh I guess take a big picture look or maybe dive into details, but help look at the work you're doing so that you can best do what you are doing, um, but in a way that is focused on you as individual, not as in how well you're doing your work or anything like that, but holistic. Well, how are you going as a person? Where are you um I guess like the well-being of of who you are?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, well. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. I had a a uh person get in touch with me last week and uh they they emailed me and I set up a Zoom meeting with them and uh I said to them, So lovely to meet you. Uh what is it you're looking for? And they said, Well, I really don't know. It's just that my denomination had told me that I have to have coaching four times a year. Okay. So I said, What do you think coaching is all about then? And he said, Well, I've got no idea. I said, Well, supervision? And he said, Well, no, I've got no idea. So I said, Would it be useful just to run through various modes with you to see what it is you're really looking for? And he said, Oh, that would be really helpful. So I started with counselling, and I said, Look, if you go to see a counsellor, what's going on is you're you have a problem often linked with something that's happened in the past, although it might have current implications or impact for you, and you're looking for healing from that for that thing. You're in a position with a counsellor where it's confidential, you're able to open up and talk to about what's going on in your heart, your mind, in your actions, and they are able to suggest some therapy to help you through to get healed, to get through the situation so that you can become more whole and better off. So it's a backward-looking, past-looking mostly activity. Yeah. Pastoral counselling, the thing that pastors and church leaders do is slightly different because it's not necessarily s quite so therapeutic. Um, pastoral counselling is very much you getting alongside somebody, isn't it? And you know, you weep with those who weep and you you rejoice with those who rejoice. It's that kind of experience uh where you are encouraging people. Yes. You might pray with them, you might open up the scriptures and say this is something that might speak to you, you uh encouraging them that they're not alone, that you are a people, a body, um, and that we we fill this together and we work through it together.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You're doing those kind of lessons on you, it's comfort, it's counsel, you know, that's that kind of thing. Then there's mentoring. Most people have heard of mentoring. Now, if you were to talk about mentoring, Nathan, what would you say mentoring?
SPEAKER_02:Mentoring, I think, is an older person um spending time with a younger person. Often often it's around a similar career trajectory. So I might choose a mentor who is in the same kind of work that I do and who I admire. And essentially I'm saying, I want to spend time with you, I want to ask you uh about your life and about your work. So that you can help me to live life and and and do work in a in a in a way that's good. Peter. I wanna I wanna I want to gain from your experience.
SPEAKER_00:You kind of would choose someone that you'd like to emulate, right? Yeah, yeah, you want to be like them, so you want to hear the way they do things, see the way they do things and and mirror that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that's what I explained to this this chap. I went on to then talk about consultancy. I said sometimes we we want somebody to be a consultant for us. Um maybe for your life, but not so much for your life. It's more in your church context, really, or in your ministry context. You might call in a consultant. And that's really because there is something that is not going right, there's something that needs correcting some part of the process that isn't functioning, or something like that. And a consultant will will step into a situation and work through pay maybe a number of assessments with you, and then look at the situation and then point out the things that need to be put right and suggest ways forward for you. That's a consultant, isn't it? And then coaching is another another thing again. The way I described it, and maybe please put me right, Nathan. You're the expert here. Uh, but coaching to me is helping a person get from A to B. They they want to be a person like this, they want to achieve this, they want this goal to be achieved, they want to set their lives in a particular direction. And a coach is able to help them understand what it is that they are wanting to aim for and then help them with the steps to get there. Would that be reasonable? That's right, Ken.
SPEAKER_02:And so often there's there's a measure of accountability around that. Oh yeah. So if you want to get there, well, every time we we have a conversation, I'll ask you, how are you have you done the thing that you said you were going to do? How did how did it go?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So that's that's a kind of coaching thing. And then lastly, supervision. Well, what is supervision? And I described it as being a space on a regular basis with somebody completely outside of your organization, yeah, who you can talk to in a confidential way about the things that are most impacting you. The things that you are enjoying most, the things that you are struggling with, the things that you want to overcome, the thing that is bothering you. Sometimes supervision is just a place to talk, and that's absolutely fine. Sometimes it's a place where you want some clarity, sometimes it involves a bit of coaching, sometimes it involves a little bit of I wouldn't say advice, because you've got to be careful about advice, but uh you could think about it like this is a sort of a thing that you might be able to say in the supervision space. I have to say sometimes, and I did say this to the chat, I said sometimes I feel like I'm somebody's mother, you know, and they come with woes and troubles, and I have to sort of put my hand on them very gently, even through Zoom. Put my hand on them and say, Don't worry, dear, it'll be all right. No? Uh, because that's just uh that's just part of it. So when I finished this conversation, I said, So those are the kinds of modes that that are out there. I said, what do you feel that you need? And he actually said, Well, I think I need all of them. So we had a conversation from there.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. And that is my favorite, I think, well, one of my favorite parts of the of what supervision is, is that it contain can contain all those different elements. Yeah, it does, yeah. Um, and it's really is just serve the person the supervisor either person that you're meeting with um in the way that they need it for that time.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Ken. Okay, Nina, question for you. Think of it like this. Can you give us an analogy with which to think about supervision?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, supervision is an act of reframing. Yeah. Um so reframing, I guess, is the idea that you have a situation, um, nothing about the situation has changed, but through talking through it with someone that you're able to see it with new eyes. Um, so say I had was having trouble with um a someone that I was working with, um, all I could see was their issues, but in the process of talking it through with my supervisor, I say, oh, there's some other things going on in their life that is causing them to act this way. I can actually have a little bit of compassion. But the process of talking about it, of being asked some good questions about it, that gives me the opportunity to think about it in a different way.
SPEAKER_01:So I was talking to someone who I supervise regularly, and they were talking about a particular ministry that had been difficult for them in the church. And he knew that I knew this ministry because of our previous conversations. And he said to me, he said, now tell me, he said, Do you think this is a good ministry? And I said, Good for whom? And that just made him stop and he just went, Oh, oh, of course. And he understood, he understood my question because what I was implying by my question was actually it's really great for the people who run it, but it actually doesn't do much good elsewhere, you know, otherwise, does it? And in fact, that led to him actually stopping the ministry altogether. What a great story. Is it a great story? I can think of another story. Yeah. Let me tell you another story. I was talking to a church minister, and they were burdened that session with a relationship issue. There was somebody in their church who was really giving them grief. They were really struggling with this person to the point where they were actually trying to avoid talking to this person because uh it was it was just hard work every time. They felt they were being criticized, they felt that they were being a bit undermined. All of those things were happening in conversation with this person, but it was a person they couldn't actually avoid, you know, you know how it is, yeah. And so he was telling me it wasn't his spouse. No, it wasn't, it wasn't their spouse. Fortunately, it wasn't, uh, but it could have been. Um, however, we had this conversation, and so I started to ask him about this, and I said, Now, listen, obviously, when you meet this person, it presses your buttons, doesn't it? And he went, Oh yeah, it does it, press my button. So I said, So name some of those buttons. And he looked at me like, oh my goodness, can I name them? And actually, what happened is we got to the end of our session and I said, Look, you've you've struggled to name the buttons that are getting pushed when you meet with this person. Why don't you over the next month, why don't you just engage this person in conversation and watch what buttons are being pushed and see if you can name them, make a note of it. I said, also, when your buttons get pushed and you're feeling that emotion, try to figure out where in your body you are feeling that emotion. And then the following week he came back, he shared what he had found in the previous week. We had a really helpful conversation, we helped him undo some of the issues that he was facing with that person, and the relationship looked different from then on. That's a reframing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I like that in both of those stories, you it uh you didn't give advice, you didn't tell them what to see, you asked them a question that changed their perspective on what they were seeing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like in the day-to-day of the work that people are doing, they're so focused on what's directly in front of them, they feel the first response, I guess, of of those relationships, you know, oh, I can't handle this person, that sort of thing. And it's not until they actually slow down, take the time that happens in a supervision session to actually access that that reservoir, I guess, of what they have within themselves to perceive something differently.
SPEAKER_01:It's interesting, isn't it, Nina? That often all it takes for somebody to have their situation reframed is them explaining to an outside person what is actually going on.
SPEAKER_00:100%.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And then to hear your reflection back of what you think that they've told you, and for them to then need to explain it a little bit more. And that sometimes that's all that it takes to reframe a situation for a person. They've said it.
SPEAKER_02:Just getting it out of my head. Out of my head.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and when I've said it and I see what I am saying, I actually feel different about what it is that I'm facing.
SPEAKER_02:Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:I saw a cartoon once, and it was a chicken talking to another chicken, and one chicken was saying to the other, What do you mean you want to get to the other side of the road? That is the other side of the road. That's a reframing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:All right, brilliant. Well, thank you guys for that. Can you have a myth for us today?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's a it comes up ever so commonly, and that is you talk to people who are busy in their lives, they're busy in their ministry, they're busy in their church, they're busy in their organization, and basically they say, Oh, I love the idea of supervision. I just don't have time. Now, Nina was telling me uh earlier that she had somebody that she was talking to about supervision, and they phoned up a week later and just said, Well, Nina, I would love to do supervision, but I just don't have enough time. At which point you just laughed to yourself. Yes, to myself, yes, definitely. Laughed at the irony because they needed it.
SPEAKER_00:But the the pure fact that they were um that they had all these different things going on in their life. They had just started a new job, they were taking on more responsibilities, um, they had some sickness in the family. family and they didn't have any space to unpack any of those things. They were clear indicators that this person could really needed supervision, but they were, I guess, blinded by the busyness that they couldn't see the benefit that it would have to them to just take that time to pause, reflect, see the big picture, um, have someone that they could talk to about these huge things that were going on in their life. Yeah, so I it was a bit ironic.
SPEAKER_01:I mean it is ironic because really if that person had taken time to look at these things, they would actually end up being less busy.
SPEAKER_00:Indeed. Or they would have more strategies for facing the things that they were that were coming at them.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. They needed it reframed.
SPEAKER_00:They did.
SPEAKER_02:Good point. Good point. I feel I feel like if you do think about life in terms of productivity, perhaps seeing supervision as an opportunity to rethink your productivity might be a helpful way of thinking about it in terms of a return of investment.
SPEAKER_01:For sure, what do you think? I think so. I think when somebody says I'm too busy for supervision, my response to that is then you are too busy. What you really need is supervision to help you see why you're too busy. What is it you're doing that you shouldn't be doing what is it you should be emphasizing and giving your time to because it's the supervision helps you to reorder those priorities, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00:And I think that you're right, Nathan in that we can say, oh, you need to do supervision. You always have time for supervision. But it does um there is value in it in terms of taking that hour or so a month or what have you allows you to have the that space to be strategic about how you spend the time the rest of your month. Supervision is a space for both of those things. And so when you take the time to do it, you do it doesn't become a burden. It actually helps you live the rest of your life better.
SPEAKER_02:It's very well said. So people if you're listening to this and you don't have time for supervision I think what we're saying to you is actually that means you need supervision more. Yep 100% all right we have a question of the week and my question is if you took obligation out of the scenario what would you do let's just say you you've been telling me about a particular situation that is a total conundrum for you. Yeah I do not know what to do. Yeah if I was to say to you Welkin if you took the obligation out of the scenario what would you do?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah okay yeah I see what you're saying. Yeah that's a very good question.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's a good question.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think it's a good question when you ask that question of people what are common things that they feel obligated to do I think in a church setting often we feel obligated to keep the machine running. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And and there is a time for keeping the machine running but sometimes we end up paying the cost for that. Or sometimes we don't even know what is happening. We don't know how much of our our our our time and identity and personal satisfaction is going into something that we feel ultimately obligated to do. And if we can distinguish that sense of obligation obligation isn't always a bad thing of course from what we would choose to do that can be a helpful clarification.
SPEAKER_00:I think another common thing that comes up is the sense of responsibility that um if if I don't do it the XYZ will happen. So if I don't continue running this thing well it will fall apart and that will mean this when you take the opportunity to re-examine all is that my responsibility if the Sunday service doesn't look the way it currently looks because I'm not doing XYZ well then that's that's quite a helpful like conversation to have I think yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's interesting I was talking to one pastor yesterday and he said that in my denomination he said I feel an obligation to be pessimistic about the future of the church it's become so common in amongst my peers just to talk about that you know here we are captains of a sinking ship he said to speak otherwise goes so against the grain it's almost impossible to do. So to speak positively my denomination about we are looking for growth we're looking to see more new people added we're you know we're looking to punt churches he said it's almost impossible I made the comment yesterday that actually there is another wing of the church where it's almost an obligation to be positive. And that actually you're not you're kind of not allowed amongst your peers and amongst those you you know with whom you work to be anything other than oh it's wonderful oh we're you know almost like it's practically revival every week. I remember talking to a pastor some time ago about um his church growth over the last five years. It was a survey I was doing in Christchurch at the time and uh he he just told me such extraordinary stories about how they're growing and how many people they see come to Christ every week and and I look back at his figures the year the five years before and they were better than the numbers he was giving me now. So it didn't add up did it and I think what it was is that in his circle there was an obligation to be incredibly positive.
SPEAKER_02:I had a friend Ken who um who used to talk about how different denominations are a little bit like the characters in Winnie the Pooh so the church that he was a part of was a little bit like Eeyore so everything's terrible um but he'd been uh he'd been at a church that was a bit like Tigger Tigger yeah yeah yeah yeah I can imagine so he wasn't sure which was better or which was worse but but uh that made me laugh so what is the problem with obligation Nathan I think obligation only really becomes a problem when we take more responsibility for something than we should it's a good question.
SPEAKER_00:If you were talking to someone came to see you and you felt like they were taking more responsibility for something than they should how would you help them perceive that well I might ask them that question around obligation yeah I mean I think a a really good an analogy to explore obligation might be me talking to my daughter about tidying her room. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right? So um she has an obligation to tidy her room and I can say to her Eva can you tidy your room please and I might say two or three times um but at the end of the day if the room is still untidy if that's really tearing me up that's got to be my problem and if for instance I go in there and tidy it for her again that tells you more about me than it does about her I think so a lovely audience what are you going to take away from our kitchen today? That's a question that we ask our supervision clients when we sit down with them. What are you taking away? So uh what are you taking away from our sitian today this has been the supervision sessions I'm Nathan I'm Nana and I'm Kevin thank you for joining us
